Talk:Four-minute mile

Untitled

Though I think it's a nice topic, this text may need some editing. With over 800 people having broken 4 minutes (http://w1.196.telia.com/~u19603668/atb-m07.htm) one is not really considered a great miler anymore - maybe for the amateur runner. Jeronimo 800 out of 6600 million is still "great." That is about 8 out of a million! NoraTes (talk) 01:25, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be better to merge this into World record progression for the mile run? Agentsoo 23:39, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Women and miles

Has a women ever run a 4 minute mile? If so, who was the first woman to do so?--66.56.42.131 01:15, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No, a woman has never run a 4 minute mile. And probably wont for the next several years. - Scotown

I would say probably never will. The reason being the mile race in no longer run, being replaced by 1500 m events. Runners don't train for miles anymore, only metric distances.68.105.199.216 (talk) 04:25, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

The article currently reads "No woman has ever run a four-minute mile, although it is not thought to be physically possible." Shouldn't that be "... not thought to be physically impossible"? 24.4.196.194 14:45, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I just removed it all together because there's no real sources cited. --Liface 15:29, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Impossible?

The article says: "... previously thought to be impossible 4 minute mile ...". Who thought it was impossible? Was this the general concensus before 1954? Of track athletes? Of sports medicine physicians?

I find it somewhat hard to believe that *everybody* thought it was impossible, given that the World_record_progression_for_the_mile_run had been dropping fairly regularly for 100 years, and that two Swedes had run within 5 seconds of it multiple times, 10 years before. (And if not *everybody*, then who?)

See the Roger Bannister entry and associated discussion page for the "impossible" four-minute mile myth. And, more accurately, the "two Swedes" (Hagg and Andersson) didn't just run within 5 seconds of the four-minute mile - they decreased the world record 5 seconds, from 4:06.4 to 4:01.4 in a series of head-to-head races during 1943-45. Thus, no informed observer would have thought it impossible to decrease the record by another 1.4 seconds. 137.82.188.68 06:01, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

For anybody that follows high school track, it is easy to see why people had a hard time believing the 4 minute barrier could be broken. Not since Alan Webb broke the barrier, has any high school student broken the 4 minute barrier (before Webb, nobody went sub 4 since 1967). Steve Magness and Galen Rupp ran many 4:00-4:01 minute miles in their high school career, but never actually going under 4. The reason why I use high school athletes as an example is because their bodies are not as mature as full adults so they become at a disadvantage. However, high school athletes today do have some advantages. In the 1950's, athletes were running on cinder tracks as opposed to a mondo surface. From [Robert Cohen's website], "Virtually all records in track and field today are set on Mondo tracks. Mondo tracks are faster because they return more energy to the athlete than any other track surface, but are soft enough to train on every day." In addition to the track surface, shoes (lighter shoes, flats) and training programs (Lindgren, Salzaar, etc. have had serious upgrades. Sharpdust 23:47, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Here's a some sources on the topic. I had a look at the Time magazine archive to see what they said about the four minute mile pre-1954. Relevant headlines were:

• 1952 The dream of a four-minute mile, once considered a physical impossibility seemed a lot closer to reality last week.[1]

• 1952 The four minute mile is possible.[2]

• 1946 - four minute mile will be run withing two years.[3]

• 1945 - four minute mile no longer a problem.[4]

• 1940 - Ten years ago, a four-minute mile, a seven-foot high jump, a 15-foot pole vault were considered as unlikely as a cow jumping over the moon. Year after year U. S. athletes, a dedicated, concentrated and highly competitive lot, have approached nearer & nearer these impossible figures.[5]

Other publications seem to have been running similar stories. I think the general conclusion from these sources is:

• The four minute mile was considered an important milestone, and there was a lot of newspaper speculation about whether and when it could be broken

• At some point it might have been thought to be difficult or impossible, although I haven't found any concrete examples of someone with an informed opinion saying it couldn't be done. However, by the 1940s it seems that most informed opinion (i.e. runners themselves, and those who plotted graphs or looked at the progression of the world records) was that it could be broken, and there was a lot of competition to see who would be the first to succeed.

From these contemporary sources, there is no backing for the view that "In the 1940s running a four minute mile was thought to be the physical limit of the human body", which I have now removed from the text. Similarly, while it's not uncommon to find modern writers making it sound like people thought the four minute mile was impossible right up until it was broken, I think we need to be a bit sceptical - it makes for a good story, but it doesn't seem to be backed up by good sources from the period. More digging around in archives might help.

Enchanter 21:28, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Multiple runners under four minutes in one race

I recall a race - 1970s is my guess - in which at least five runners got home in less than four minutes. The distance is less often run these days - 1500 m is much more common - so I wonder if this is still a record for multiple four minuters. My (fallible) memory tells me that Marty Liquori was one of them. If anyone has a recollection or a reference, this would be worth including in the piece.Cross Reference (talk) 15:37, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

According to alltime-athletics.com, at a race in Berlin on August 26th, 1997, Duncan Kibet ran under 4 minutes and finished 17th.

Wild speculation

It seems inappropriate that the start of this article devotes so much time to wild speculation about a 3 minute mile. This appears ludicrous to anyone with knowledge of the rate at which athletics records have improved over the last 50 years, and the slowing of this rate over that period. 82.17.206.121 12:36, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I moved the unsubstantiated speculation to here. If someone can find an authority to be cited on this issue, the "3 minute mile" may be justified as a topic to be addressed in the article. On a technical point, the reason a sub-45s 400m is possible is due to the capacity of the muscles to do anaerobic work as well as aerobic work. A 400m run uses almost all the muscle's anaerobic capacity, making it unreasonable to expect someone to do another three sub-45s 400m runs straight afterwards without a rest.

Authorities of sports medicine have long speculated that a three minute mile is beyond the capacity of human beings. However, considering that, first of all, that the same was once claimed of the four-minute mile, and secondly, that the world record in the 400m is 43.18 seconds, a three minute mile—which would take just under 45 seconds per 400 meters—may be possible.

82.17.206.121 13:30, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

so.... ??! I only half get the point to do with the 400m runner being completely out of breath at the end (using up all the muscle's anaerobic capacity) as that is the same as a mile runner, he uses all of his up too etc.... Mathmo ^Talk 09:26, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Big Hawk Chief

The following section was added last month by User:Beshkno, but was recently deleted without comment. Though I'm not convinced it's "official", the incident does seem to be well covered by reliable sources [6] [7] [8]. Any thoughts on mentioning it in the article, maybe without demoting Bannister to "second"?

In 1876, in the service of the U.S. Army Big Hawk Chief (Pawnee) ran a mile in under four minutes. Near the town of Sidney, Nebraska at the army barracks, Luther North, the commander of the scouts, and Hugh Bean, a citizen of Sidney, used a steel tape to measure out a half-mile track. Two army officers with stopwatches timed the mile race. Big Hawk Chief crossed the finish line in 3 minutes and 58 seconds. [National Museum of the American Indian magazine, Fall 2004]

Deleted without comment..hm..."The incident does seem to be well covered by reliable sources," then why not include it in the entry? Does someone object to the fact that a non-white person will be promoted to "first?" Thought that the whole point of this project was to supply truth and facts, not filtered through someone Anglophilic perception. Beshkno 17:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Beshkno

If anyone's still interested, it's not a racial thing at all. The fact is that running historians have credited Banister with the first sub-four minute mile. The article mentions Ken Wood without changing Roger's status; we can do the same with Big Hawk Chief. When I get more time, I can work on it, or someone else can. --Spiffy sperry 05:01, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Bannister was the first to set a world record of under 4:00 in the mile, period. I've heard other claims besides the two mentioned, but they were not achieved under verifiable conditions. The 1876 claim would not be considered a "record" as the track sounds like it is non-standard. No records would be recognized on an 800 m track even if they ran 10 seconds faster than the recognized standard. Which is why organizations like the IAAF came into existence - to set up a system of standards by which athletes in track and field could be compared.

There seems to be a bit of confusion here as to what constitutes a "record" - while many claims about many "records" have been made over the decades, the issue of verifiability is the key one. Anyone can say literally anything they want about some claimed achievement made - bodies like the IAAF however set up systems whereby conditions are as constant as can be (standard track sizes, terrain, elevation, wind etc) and protocols so that times and distances can be verified. Anecdotal claims are interesting, but they can't be verified, even if the claims may be true. Canada Jack 15:51, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I took a look at the "reliable sources" and there is no indication that this is anything more than simply an old anecdote being repeated. There are NUMEROUS claims as to fantastic feats by many runners, but one has to ask: Why once governing bodies like the IAAF in place were some of the more fantastic claims not accomplished? There are, undeniably, great Indian runners - like Tom Longboat who ran out of my gym in Toronto and 100 years this April ran a time at the Boston Marathon which was not truly exceeded for many years (though the race distance changed) - but extraordinary claims (which 3:58 in 1876 would be) require extraordinary evidence. And in this case it would be near impossible to get that. Besides, as I earlier indicated, a time run on a 800 m track would NOT be recognized as a "record" even if the claimed time and distance was accurate. Canada Jack 16:08, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to ammend some of the above - the "non-standard" track claim I made would, at the time, not have been an issue. But the lack of corroboration would have been the main reason this anecdotal time (and there were quite a few others who also claimed the "first") can not be recognized. Canada Jack 17:40, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

It seems that I remember a lot of controversy about possibility of 4 minute miles and other records being broken in the remote past. Whether true or not, it seems plausible when one considers that in the 19th century and earlier many more people relied upon their feet as the primary or only mode of transportation.Jrm2007 (talk) 19:33, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

First American, et al

I removed the addition of the first American to break the four-minute mile. If we add him, we are going to have to add an entry for the first Canadian/Kazakh/Antarctican etc etc who did as well. --SigPig |^{SEND - OVER} 22:10, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

You should also remove the information about Alan Webb. Don Bowden is more significant than Alan Webb. Tuyvan 14:19, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

By the way do we really need so such information on US High School athletes? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Davebesag (talk • contribs) 19:09, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Whose "standard" is it?

The intro to this article says the 4 min mile "is now the standard of all professional middle distance runners" and then "remains the standard by which all male amateur milers are measured". Is these two claims contradictory, or not? To whom exactly does this "standard" apply? Hult041956 (talk) 20:56, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, metric races are the standard now. No one uses miles anymore as the race has been replaced by 1500 m, thus no one rains for it. 68.105.199.216 (talk) 04:27, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

the line between professional and amateur has been very blurred for years and years, less so now and than say 20 years ago. But still, that could be where a large proportion of the confusion could be coming from. Mathmo ^Talk 09:29, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

2mi in 8 min ≠ 1mi in 4 min, twice

"Finally, Daniel Komen of Kenya holds the world 2-mile record of 7:58.61, set in 1997, which is two sub-4 minute miles back-to-back."

This is only true if Komen completed the first half in less than 4:00 but more than 3:58.61. If the first mile was completed in less than 3:58.61, then the second mile cannot have been under four minutes. Note that Komen ran a 3:46.38 mile about a month after the two mile race. —Ryan (talk) 18:34, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

This site reports the splits at 3:59.2 and 3:59.4. Trackinfo (talk) 09:10, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Expansion

It would be nice to expand this article with some stuff about the former "mystique" of the 4-minute barrier and how big a deal it was when it was broken...there's a lot of info about that in books such as Neal Bascomb's The Perfect Mile. I don't have it handy, but maybe someday I can try to add some stuff to this article. Politizer ^talk/_contribs 16:41, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree. I came to this page looking for information about the psychological/metaphysical implications of the four minute mile phenomenon. The fact that nobody was able to break the record... but then suddenly many people were able to - that's really freaking weird, and is one of the main things that the four minute mile is known for and associated with. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.192.129.34 (talk) 05:10, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Image

Why isn't this famous image of Bannister's first sub-4 used in the article? Getty Images should still hold the copyright, but I'm sure we can make a valid fair-use claim. It could probably also go in Roger Bannister as well. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 20:14, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Item for future reference

"One of the few American elite runners was Bay to Breakers rookie Scotty Bauhs, a Danville native who holds the world record for the youngest person ever to run a mile in less than four minutes and a 10,000-meter race in less than 28 minutes."[9] Location (talk) 20:55, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Pre Breakage

Before the Four minute mile was actually broken, It should be noted who were expected to break it, in addition to the actual initial record. Louis Zamperini, for example, was expected to break it before his service in WWII. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.249.227.181 (talk) 17:52, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

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Class bias in not counting "professional" athletes

In the nineteenth century previous claimants were not dismissed because their claims were deemed unsubstantiated (as this article implies) but because they had taken money for athletics. And there had been a deliberate effort to only "count" amateur records, because the upper class had the money and leisure to make athletics something one does in one's spare time whereas people who work for a living had to earn money when they did athletics.

Keith Olbermann pointed out as much when he talked about the four minute mile on his podcast... 2001:A62:1480:2E02:9181:1645:D7FB:1BED (talk) 11:21, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/4cab918b-b4e7-4a21-8300-aec3011bf3f1/74128081-477a-4ea6-9484-affa006d9e97/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=e7682aaf-443f-41d8-945f-aec3011c5127. Here's the link to the episode, in case you want to examine Olbermann's argument for yourself... 2001:A62:1480:2E02:9181:1645:D7FB:1BED (talk) 11:23, 16 December 2024 (UTC)