Talk:Gerry Adams

Discussion relating to this article taking place

Please see Talk:Leader of Sinn Féin#Leader in Northern Ireland Assembly. Thank you. FDW777 (talk) 09:01, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Discussion now moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland#Proposals regarding various Sinn_Féin related articles. Thank you. FDW777 (talk) 16:16, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Following the discussion here consensus is to change this article to remove mentions of the "Leader of Sinn Féin in the Northern Ireland Assembly" position. FDW777 (talk) 09:02, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

Controversies?

Should the section on his family's history of abuse really be included under the "controversy" section? It feels really out of place. Controversy implies that he himself was criticized for his actions or views, as in the "n-word" fiasco. I would place it in a section on his family and background. I am not going to take any action myself, just a thought.--Óli Gneisti (talk) 11:09, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Context on Adams' denial of IRA membership

Hi FDW777, let's discuss! There's no reason to think that Graham is an unreliable source. Any number of 'subject matter experts' have expressed the same view in writing, including those cited earlier in the section (Moloney, English). I don't know what the general view on this page on Radden Keefe's work is, but he discusses the same idea at length. From what I know the accuracy of his book has not been challenged, except by Adams and the like (which falls under the category of WP:MANDY). I'm not sure what the second half of your edit summary meant, so if you could expand on that that would be great. Ganesha811 (talk) 13:18, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

David A. Graham has no expertise in the subject area. What he's written is also inaccurate. Gerry Kelly was a Sinn Féin negotiator during the peace process, see for example this and this. His IRA background is not in dispute. Similarly Martin McGuinness was Sinn Féin chief negotiator during the peace process, see for example this and this. Although in later years he disputed the length of membership and the level of his seniority in the IRA, his IRA background is not in dispute. So it makes no sense for Graham to claim that Adams needed to deny IRA membership to be a credible negotiating partner, when two of Sinn Féin's negotiating team, including the chief negotiator, were convicted of IRA membership and/or activitity. Moloney deals with the denials in more sensible terms, stating that as Sinn Féin became more active and its election candidates, including Adams, were subjected to media questioning in particular Sinn Féin's links with the IRA and whether they were IRA members. Since answering "yes" to the latter question could lead to a five-year prison sentence, even for past membership, it is hardly surprising Sinn Féin candidates were instructed not to do so. The second half of my edit summary is a nod to WP:BLPCRIME, we state the allegation, and that Adams denies it. We don't need to try and hammer home his alleged guilt by claiming his denial is "plainly ridiculous". FDW777 (talk) 13:58, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

FDW777, fair enough, and you make good points. I think it would be helpful to add some of this information to the section to make clear to readers why it is in Adams' interest to deny he was in the IRA despite widespread evidence of membership, as that is the obvious question that may come to mind when reading the article. Ganesha811 (talk) 16:31, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

While I understand the desire to add context to the denial, it's very problematic due to WP:BLPCRIME. As a living person, Adams is innocent until proven guilty. So I really don't see how to add context to the denial in a "he says he wasn't in the IRA, but he was really" type way while still being compliant with BLPCRIME. FDW777 (talk) 07:22, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

FDW777, fair enough. But the question of whether Adams was in the IRA is not exactly obscure - it's been a widespread topic of discussion in reliable sources. I think the approach has to be to cover it using those sources - accurately conveying what reliable sources have said about his denial, while not using Wikipedia's voice to make accusations or analyze the situation directly. Focus on the statements of subject matter experts. It is tricky, though, and I understand your desire for caution. Ganesha811 (talk) 13:28, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

The article does cover his alleged IRA membership, but I still don't see how to get involved in analysis of his denial without violating BLPCRIME. FDW777 (talk) 15:21, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Regarding historic membership and prosecutions see for example Ivor Bell was was charged with historic IRA membership in 2014 (despite being expelleed from the IRA in the mid-1980s, see here). Similarly Kieran Conway would only travel to England to give evidence at an inquest if he was assured he wouldn't be prosecuted for past IRA membership. FDW777 (talk) 14:16, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Controversy

This article has a controversy section that contains information about one single tweet containing the n-word. I‘m not saying that isn’t relevant, but we’re talking about one of the most controversial figures in the 20th century here. The tweet seems a bit ridiculous compared to all of the controversy around his potential IRA membership, the condolence of violence etc. I realise that information is in the other sections but this seems a bit strange. I think either the IRA stuff should be also referenced in the Controversy section or that section should be renamed to something like recent controversies. 95.222.53.72 (talk) 18:44, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Low value sources

As I have pointed out, there is no need accusations from primary references to be included when we already cite much more reliable secondary references, who have listened to what people like Price, Hughes et al say and made their determination accordingly. This is a position backed up by the request for comment at Talk:Gerry Adams/Archive 3#Request for Comment:Alleged IRA Membership, in particular "I can see citing a couple instances as examples of evidence and leaving the rest as references, but a laundry list of purported evidence does not belong here" and "Yes, exactly. It's a notable allegation denied by the subject, we should present it in those terms, in the simplest way possible and using the two or three best sources, and leave it at that" (which were the only responses!). "Person x says so too" adds nothing of value to what the article already says. FDW777 (talk) 13:30, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

User:FDW777 they are different allegations by different people in a RS and so worthy of inclusion. You do seem very keen to remove allegations of Adams' IRA involvement: [1]. A discussion from 2007 doesn't necessarily represent current consensus. Mztourist (talk) 06:52, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

No, they are the same allegation. You might also want to look at the history of this article, and see exactly who it is that fleshed out the section here so it became more about Adams' alleged trajectory through the IRA and less of a "this person says he was in the IRA, and so does this person, and this person, and this person, and this person" to the point of tedium. FDW777 (talk) 15:26, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Come on, man. Readers should be able to see what actual IRA members say about Adams' involvement. Anything less is just whitewashing. Jessintime (talk) 17:16, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

See the request for comment regarding laundry lists of accusers/evidence. Think differently? Start a new request for comment. FDW777 (talk) 14:25, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

I've removed what can only be described as a "laundry list" of additonal accusers, which flew in the face of the "using the two or three best sources" reply during the request for comment. Also I have removed the following addition, pending discussuion.

• Almost all academics and researchers agree Adams was in the IRA and on his history in the organisation. They concur that he joined the IRA in the 1960s, was OC of the 2nd battalion of the Belfast Brigade from 1971-1972, became adjutant for the brigade in 1972, and had become OC of the brigade by 1973. Many also believe that Adams went on to become a key figure in the IRA's senior leadership, and that he joined the IRA Army Council in 1977 and remained in it for a significant period.

This is essentially redundant to the current content, since it makes no sense to list many academics and researchers, then hammer it home with "Almost all academics and researchers agree Adams was in the IRA and on his history in the organisation". If anything, I believe this should replace the current text not be used in addition to it. However without qutes from the sources cited I am unable to say if they cover the entirety of the existing text, so if quotes can be provided that would be helpful.

Per WP:ONUS please do not restore this text, especially since it has been the subject of a request for comment. Kathleen's bike (talk) 14:27, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Kathleen's bike, I hope you're doing well!

I've just seen your comment here after making edits to Gerry_Adams#IRA_membership_allegations. I remembered making some edits in the past that I thought seemed to have been reversed, so checked the edit history and only then saw your revert of them, which is why I've just seen your comment here now. Now that I've seen your post here, I won't make any more edits until after discussing them first.

I'm sorry for inadvertently violating your principle to avoid adding a "laundry list" of additional accusers by listing former IRA members who have stated Adams was also a member of the organisation. However, I think the fact that multiple former IRA members, including some senior ones, have stated Adams was in the IRA warrants coverage, so perhaps we could state this fact without listing many or any of their names?

Do you think it would be useful to add the following information from The New Yorker?

> Moreover, Adams was described as "an active Belfast military commander" in a 1973 US diplomatic cable, he has been pictured wearing an IRA uniform at a funeral, and represented the IRA during negotiations with the British government on numerous occasions, including one in which the IRA demanded he was first released before negotiations could take place.

I was thinking of also saying that multiple former government officials also have stated Adams was in the IRA, for example civil servant Philip Woodfield, MI6 officer Frank Steele, Irish Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Michael McDowell, and diplomat Paul Lever. Again, it might be better to make this point without listing many or any specific names?

I agree that some of my previous edit you posted above is redundant. I think some of it, however, would provide useful context on Adams' alleged IRA involvement not seen elsewhere in the article. I think inserting a single sentence could add useful information to the beginning of the second paragraph, as follows:

Practically all academics agree that Adams joined the IRA in the 1960s, was Officer commanding (OC) of the 2nd battalion of the Belfast Brigade from 1971-1972, became adjutant for the brigade in 1972, and had become OC of the brigade by 1973. Moloney and Taylor state that Adams became the IRA's Chief of Staff following the arrest of Seamus Twomey....

Please could you let me know what you think about these proposed changes?

Thank you :) 13tez (talk) 02:36, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

References