Talk:Ploughman's lunch

Etymology?

The article on "Ploughman's lunch" states flatly that the term is "a late 1970's invention of the UK catering industry."

If this is so, why can I find US newspaper cites dating from 1964, talking about "ploughman's lunch" and describing the meal. It was almost certainly a pub meal. I have no doubt that the pubs invented the phrase in the 20th century, but certainly the "UK catering industry" in the late 1970's had no part in it's inception.

Sam Clements —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.166.33.12 (talk • contribs) 02:43, 1 October 2004

I'm not expert, but I thought a ploughman's lunch includes a stiff ale. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.239.210.166 (talk • contribs) 22:31, 3 October 2004

The late 1970s is two decades off the mark. The ploughman's lunch, as I stated years ago in Talk, was created by the Milk Marketing Board in the UK in the late 1950s/early 1960s due to a surplus of dairy products/milk at that time - the oft-quoted "Dairy Mountain." Many people who studied marketing and business at university in the 1980s will be familiar with this, and it is verifiable in text books I no longer have. Surely someone can cite one? Guv2006 (talk) 09:05, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

The Milk Marketing Board

I'm fairly sure that the Ploughman's Lunch was invented in the 1960s by the UK Milk Marketing Board in an effort to increase cheese sales. This explains its total absence outside the UK (compare other traditional fayre such as fish and chips or roast beef, which you can find outside the UK).

--Smallbone10 20:48, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You are one hundred per cent correct. Guv2006 (talk) 09:06, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Ham?

Why is there a pic of a pair of horses? Pretty useless pic tbh. 131.111.200.200wikibaron131.111.200.200

meat?

I think that slices of meat and some lettuce is normally includes also. Alan2here (talk) 16:35, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Pickle

I think we need to be careful in this article to clarify what is meant by "pickle" or "pickles", as either of these could refer to relish (which is called "pickle" in the UK, such as that made by Branston) or a pickled cucumber (which is called a "pickle" in the US and Canada). Are pickled cucumbers ever used in ploughmen's lunches, in the same way that pickled onions are? As it is, this remains unclear in the article, and I don't know either way. leevclarke (talk) 21:45, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that British pickle is quite the same as "relish" in other countries. Do we have a consensus? 86.5.68.172 (talk) 18:00, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Apologies, last comment by me Gavinayling (talk) 18:01, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, it fits the definition of relish perfectly. Relish is different in different countries though. Logical Cowboy (talk) 18:54, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Still, right now the article is including pickles in the main definition as chutney. I think the US version of a ploughman's lunch usually DOES involve a pickled cucumber, with cheese and bread. I realize this article is mostly about the UK version; the call for clarification by Leevclarke was quite perspicacious; still, I'd support using pickle in the initial definition, followed by a more detailed explanation of pickled cucumbers, pickled onions, or pickled-vegetables-made-into-chutney later on in the article. 76.179.173.45 (talk) 05:48, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Worms

The statement "The feast may also include worms" is, I suspect, vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.79.100.238 (talk) 14:20, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Served with a pint of beer

"It is a common menu item in English pubs, where it is served with a pint of beer."

This makes it sound as if you automatically get a beer as part of the meal. I've never seen it included as such - I've always had to buy my beer (or cider, etc) separately Wardog (talk) 19:47, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

If that was the case, you wouldn't want every member of your family getting a ploughman's, would you? Maybe the five-year olds in this scenario would be automatically downgraded to a shandy? (joke). Guv2006 (talk) 09:10, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Ploughboy?

Surely this is vandalism?

"A comparable meal, popular prior to World War II, was also known as 'ploughboy's lunch".

If there had been something called a "ploughboy's lunch" prior to World War II, why would the Milk Marketing Board have felt the need to invent the ploughman's? This seems to be a complete fabrication. Guv2006 (talk) 21:19, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Variants

Also strange - and suspect - are the almost endless and silly variants listed in the main article. Are people just adding ingredients for fun? For example, would this be acceptable?

Thick slice of cheese; half a loaf of crusty bread; six small pickled onions; a raw carrot to dunk in a pot of salad cream; a small serving of Hula Hoops; some cold chips; and a pickled gherkin on a cocktail stick? Washed down with a flagon of Tizer, obviously. It seems to me that people have been adding ingredients for a laugh. Guv2006 (talk) 21:36, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

What is the "Cheese Bureau"?

Is that like a ministry of cheese? Or more like a secret sevice agency? I find the thought of these chuckle worthy. Or is it just some part of a dairy compony? Anyway I couldn't find anything about it, so maybe it could be explained or rephrased in the article?! --Xario (talk) 08:54, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, you can't have looked far, because the CB clearly existed. Nick Cooper (talk) 10:50, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Appreciated. And in my defense, google:"Cheese Bureau" did not look promising. --Xario (talk) 15:37, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

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Onion? Really?

Very surprised to see onion mentioned as a prime ingredient, as I’ve rarely seen it served. Pickle always, though. I’ll change the article accordingly in a few days or so unless there are objections. Boscaswell talk 00:56, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Bread, cheese and onions (fresh or pickled) are the consistent basic ingredients and also link the meal to the food typically served in pubs in the early 20th century and earlier. Sources: "The authentic ploughman's lunch comprises a chunk of Cheddar cheese, pickled onion and bread" (Hotelier and Caterer) or Adrian Bell's "good square hunk of bread, a lump of butter and a wedge of cheese, and pickled onions", another one: "a ploughman's lunch is made up of fresh bread, hard cheese, onion and pickles" ; "The Ploughman's Lunch of bread, cheese, onions and ale..." (Hessayon).Svejk74 (talk) 15:53, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Baguette? Really?

The photo shows a ploughman's with, somewhat incongruously, a decapitated Baguette. Baguettes are French. They are as British as Chow Mein. A photo of a "texbook" ploughman's should really have a few "trenchant" slices of a traditionally British loaf, particularly the rustic types such as a Cottage Loaf rather than this Gallic interloper. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.93.146.80 (talk) 16:49, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Girl Dinner

Sorry if this is silly, but it seems like the modern term "girl dinner" is very similar to the idea of a ploughman's lunch- is it worth noting that? perhaps there could be a section including other cultures' cold lunches made up of assorted items, or modern interpretations of this- maybe even the lunchable. Ellacution (talk) 22:03, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

I found a secondary source which makes this exact comparison: https://www.bonappetit.com/story/girl-dinner.

It doesn't seem silly to me - linking between here and girl dinner at least to note that the comparison has even been made seems like it could be a good addition to both pages! Barmomineth (talk) 21:45, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Image in lead

Hello, Me and @Barmomineth have disagreed on the image to put at the top of the article. It started out as the image with the tomatoes and baguette, I changed it to the more barebones version, they changed it back because they felt that the original image was more correct and correctly pointed out my failure to change the captions to match the images, and I changed it back after working to make the captions more in line with the images. If anyone, especially Barmomineth, has any thoughts to build consensus, please put them here! Thanks so much! JuxtaposedJacob (talk) 19:01, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi @JuxtaposedJacob! I'm really happy to see you take up my offer to discuss on the talk page - this is the process by which we build a better encyclopedia together after all!

In honesty, my opinion on this isn't very strong: I think both represent the dish as a whole, and reverting your edit to the version I thought more correct was easier than reworking the page to account for the changes as you have so kindly done.

I'm happy to leave the edited page as it is.

Separately, I noted on Commons that the image actually depicts cider rather than any kind of beer. Some would disagree with this as a component of a modern Ploughman's but for accuracy I've updated the caption to reflect it (indeed we already mention cider as a component of a traditional ploughman's lunch).

Just as a future tidy-up note, we'll want to make sure the image on List of English dishes is kept up to date with the infobox: I updated this to match the previous infobox image - it previously hadn't been updated since before the infobox image had changed - but I realise if consensus falls on the side of the traditional image we'll want them to be kept the same.

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All this said, and if we want to make this page the best it can be...

My main argument is that the more modern depiction better represents the dish as it is represented externally: as well as the already-cited Guardian article (which admits ham as a key component not depicted in the main image), other articles cite a "ploughperson's" which includes ham and chutney. That said, this definitely biased towards modernity in looking for online news coverage.

Subjectively and entirely on taste, it also aligns better with my personal experience having ploughmanses (sp?) in pubs, and I think would set readers of this article up with a better idea of what they're in for if they were to order one (rather than a beige traditional variation that's doing English food's reputation no favours).

Slightly less modernity-biased, the image used in Encyclopedia Brittanica (while of course another tertiary source) also depicts pork pie and fresh fruit as components.

From a purely consensus perspective, in the page edit history there is a light vote against the barebones image (although not in favour of its replacement) from User:Thumperward describing it as "an awful, non-indicative image from a long-blocked user". The other image was present but further down the page and only promoted in a later revision.

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As a way forward, the ploughman's lunch as a distinct concept with that name is not a particularly traditional invention - as the article already states it's mostly an invention of marketing in the '50s and '60s - and I suspect sources from the time would give the best idea of what a "traditional" ploughman's lunch is (as that is the dish-in-name, as opposed to simply documenting what ploughmen ate in centuries prior).

I'll have a bit of a dig and see whether I can find anything compelling: it could lead to a better article for everyone as well as helping resolve this matter of consensus. Barmomineth (talk) 21:38, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I'll have a bit of a dig and see whether I can find anything compelling

The existing citations covering ploughmanses of the '50s has an example including sides such as boiled eggs and cold sausages, but the general consensus at least of that period seems to be the base dish is simply bread, cheese and (pickled) onions. No surprise.

Looking for other citations turned up a BBC press release from 2006 associated with Wordhunt which supports the Milk Marketing Board point

Ploughman's Lunch The OED had no evidence for this before 1970. With help from Wordhunters, this has now been pushed back to 1960, when documents uncovered at the National Archive from the Milk Marketing Board reveal that the Ploughman's Lunch was invented as a marketing ploy to sell British cheese in pubs.

I'd be interested in these National Archive docs; I also wonder if the relevant episodes of the programme Balderdash and Piffle could be an interesting jumping-off point, if I could find a copy somewhere. Some external coverage of the associated book suggests there might be some showcards depicting the ploughman's lunch as promoted by the Cheese Council which could be a fun thing to look at in itself.

Doing this research is also giving me a real craving for a ploughman's! I wasn't expecting such a simple dish to have such a rich history. Barmomineth (talk) 23:25, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I've gone further into this than I can really quite justify - as another point of reference, the eponymous ploughman's lunch of The Ploughman's Lunch consists of Cheddar cheese, butter, pickle, salad (with cucumber and tomato), and indeed a lump of baguette. It's shown around 1:28:50-ish, and I think can stand in as a typical (or at least notable) depiction of what it looked like in the '80s. Barmomineth (talk) 23:53, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

To be honest I can't remember why I was so riled up about that image. It's not high-quality, and it basically does nothing more than emphasise "this is a sandwich", but it's not offensively bad. I still think there's room for improvement.

On the other hand, the proposed replacement is far too busy, and I'd rather we didn't lean into the myth where this is a Real Cultural Thing and not the Milk Board rebranding the cheese sandwich for the sake of selling more milk.

To be quite honest, my preferred solution would be for someone to just nip down to Marks and Spencer and grab one of their (very good) sandwiches, take it out of the packet, and photograph that. No "traditional" cider, no baguettes, just a thing which is unequivocally this "dish" because it says so on the label. I might well do it myself in a month if this is still an issue. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:59, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

That would be a good idea, perhaps the best solution, and we could leave the other two images in the article but lower down.

JuxtaposedJacob (talk) 15:59, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

@Thumperward, have you gotten a chance to take that photograph?

JuxtaposedJacob (talk) | :) | he/him | 02:16, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I've now moved back to the UK (to my regret) so will probably just get one of the aforementioned sandwiches and add it here. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 03:47, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Pierce the Ploughman's Crede

Prompted by this video to look into this. Searching the text of Pierce the Ploughman's Crede itself I also couldn't find mention of a meal of bread, cheese and beer, although maybe we're missing some Middle English synonyms? I also can't find any secondary sources pre-dating its addition here in 2012. @Farrtj: happy to see you're still around, can you shed any light on this? the wub "?!" 21:51, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Was it me who added this information? Tom (talk) 19:55, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I linked the diff above. the wub "?!" 21:45, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

"Plowman's lunch"

"Plowman" is simply the American spelling of "ploughman". This is a British dish, hence no need to include it. By adding the American spelling in the lede, it implies that the "plowman" spelling is also used outside the US. Barry Wom (talk) 11:07, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Could we clarify that "plowman's" is the American spelling? I think you are making a good point but also want to follow the sources, if such sources exist.

JuxtaposedJacob (talk) | :) | he/him | 13:03, 17 December 2024 (UTC)